Greatest QBs of All-Time: Manning, Brady and Favre
In the thread, Should Elway be Considered One of the Greatest QBs of All-Time, we talked about Elway’s place among all-time great QBs. I don’t think it’s too early to talk about Manning, Favre and Brady’s place. No matter who goes to and wins the Superbowl, I think Favre and Manning (and Brady) are viable candidates for the all-time greatest QB. Let the debate begin.
I was just thinking about this yesterday. As Reid will tell you, he was much quicker to crown Joe Montana the greatest ever; I hung on and insisted it was Roger Staubach, much as it pained me to name a Cowboy for such an illustrious title. This was while Montana was still active, and by the end of his career with the Chiefs, I was fully on board. Joe Montana, I have said ever since, is the greatest ever.
Yesterday, as I drove home, I asked myself what Joe Montana has that Peyton Manning doesn’t, and all I could come up with were the rings. Four rings to one, so far. But since 1999, Manning’s second season with the Colts, Indianapolis has averaged 11.6 wins per season. During Montana’s tenure as starting QB with the Niners (1981 to 1990), San Fran averaged 11.2 wins per season, ‘though this includes the strike-shortened 1982 during which the Niners went 3-9, some of that with replacement players.
Obviously, you can’t just go with a team’s won-lost record to determine its QB’s greatness, but neither, obviously, can you rely on just a count of Super Bowl rings.
By the time I’d gotten to where I was driving yesterday, I decided it’s about neck and neck. I’m calling it a draw. If Manning wins a second ring, I’m tilting the balance in his favor. You can say all you want about the level of competition, but while you could argue that the Niners had to play really tough Dallas, Pittsburgh, and Oakland teams during that time, they also got to face the Falcons, Rams, and Saints twice a year for a very long time. For the past several seasons, the Colts have had to play very competitive Jacksonville and Tennessee teams twice per season.
I have a feeling that by the time the sun sets on February 7, I’m going to think the greatest quarterback in NFL history is Peyton Manning. Most of me already thinks it’s true.
Are you comparing Montana and Manning mostly on statistics, or is there intangible qualities that you are factoring in? For me, there are intangibles that put Montana up so high–and maybe that isn’t (or shouldn’t be) valid. I’m thinking of the mystique around Montana (granted, Manning, Brady and Favre have a kind of mystique, too), but with Montana it involves big games and difficult moments (end of the game wins). One could argue that the mystique is more on hype and iconic moments (e.g. “the catch) rather than something substantive. I don’t know.
But let me say something about the level of competition. For me, the level of competition matters a lot in evaluating the QBs–particularly the competition faced in the post-season. So, yes, Montana faced a lot of bad teams in the regular season, but, generally speaking, he faced some good-to-great teams in the playoffs. (There was more consistency and less parity in the NFL, too–i.e. the good teams generally played well week-to-week. Current NFL teams are more volatile, imo.) There’s a boxing parallel that’s appropriate here. Determining the greatest boxers depends, in large part, on the competition they faced. This is one of the reasons Ali is considered the greatest of all-time, and the reason Larry Holmes’ place is so hard to determine. (Having said this, I realize that a lot of the Superbowl competition Montana faced wasn’t that great–a Denver, Miami, Buffalo(?)….) In general, this hurts QBs like Manning and Brady because of that–at least in my eyes.
Having said that, I do have a high regard for Manning. One of the reasons is that I’m fairly confident that Manning would be successful if he had played in the 80s and 90s. I also think (and this mainly an impression) that he’s one of most knowledgeable and intelligent QBs of all-time–and that he knows how to use this knowledge effectively.
Brady is my type of QB for sure, but I’m not sure how well he would have done without Belichik or if he played in the 80s and 90s.
John Clayton won an NFL hall of fame award for his reporting, here’s his view on the question
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=4838773
For my part, I’d agree that Manning, Favre, and Brady are among the top ten of all time. The absolute best qb of all time is, of course, John Frieze.
Clayton’s article brings to my mind the rankings of Elway and Favre. Who’s better? Even if Favre wins another Superbowl in the next few weeks, I think I’d go with Elway. My biggest knock on Elway was his performances in the Superbowls that he played in. His performances have always been good-to-great in the playoffs. It’s just his poor performances in the Superbowls that hurt his ranking for me. What I’m thinking of specifically the passes that were way off the mark or bad interceptions (versus interceptions because the receiver bobbled the ball). If it weren’t for those things, he’d might be vying for the number one spot–even if he wasn’t very effective (i.e. the defense was terrific–a la the Raiders shutting down Thiesmann) or if his teams lost in the Superbowl.
Favre’s recklessness keeps him out of the top five for me.
And, by the way, it’s Friesz
I (like Reid I think) mostly just use the “eye” test when evaluating sports talent. How does that person look to us (more than the numbers). That being said here’s some of my “eyes” comments (which obviously cannot include anything I haven’t actually seen or before my time):
Marino: Best pure passer. Not sure what kind of heart this man had, as he always didn’t play his best games against the best talent/teams. Kurt Warner is a close second. Warner’s problem is, he holds the ball too long, which leads to fumbles, bad throws, and injuries.
Aikman/Brady: Tied for the most accurate passers. Brady is slightly better with his feet in the pocket, though (ie: avoiding sacks).
Favre: Best play maker – making something out of nothing. Single handedly can win or lose games.
Elway: Best arm, great play maker. I’m not a huge fan, because from what I remember (and maybe like Reid said above from his Super Bowl appearances) didn’t always play his best against the best.
Peyton Manning: Best all around leader. No one controls his offense or has more say in what the offense is doing. Great passer as well. Again, didn’t always play his best against the better teams. Not great in avoiding sacks.
Montana/Staubach: Winner, winner chicken dinner. Cool under pressure and great winners. Like Mitchell, I think these two are the best, however Staubach’s greatness had already started to decline when I started watching. Staubach also used to lose to Bradshaw all the time. So I’ll give the edge to Montana. I also give Steve Young a nod as a second tier guy in this catagory. Not sure what these guys have, but they know how to win and make big plays when it counts the most.
My top three is Montana, Staubach, Manning.
No love for Terry Bradshaw?? Four Super Bowl rings and seemingly unstoppable at the end? When I first started watching football I remember Pittsburgh marching down the field against Dallas and then against the Rams and Bradshaw throwing touchdowns all over the place.
Restricting this to the ones that I’ve seen: I’d go Montana clearly number one and then a bunch of guys right around the same at number 2. Today it would go Elway, Favre, Manning, Brady, Bradshaw, and maybe Staubach although I’d sort of forgotten about him.
Terry Bradshaw is a good one to bring up. I think he deserves consideration, but the reason he usually doesn’t (at least for me) is that essence of those great Steelers teams resides in the defense and even the running game. Yes, Bradshaw was critical and performed well in big games, but when you think about the identity of the Steelers, I think of the Steel Curtain.
For similar reasons, I think Troy Aikman doesn’t receive as much consideration (except with those Cowboy teams, I think of Emmitt Smith being the key component of that team) for similar reasons.
Comments about Don’s Picks
Best Pure Passer
I agree with the Marino pick, but the pick of Warner surprises me just a little. When I think of a pure passer, I’m thinking of someone has a great natural ability to throw the ball. These QBs seem to throw the ball with little effort; they can make all kinds of throws in all type of situations, to some extent. Also, when thinking of “pure passer” I tend to think that aesthetics factors in a bit (i.e. the passes look good). With that said, my second pick would be Jeff George. Granted, he’s not a great QB, but as for his passing ability, I don’t know if I saw anyone more talented, particularly in terms of how effortless he seemed to fling the ball.
Most Accurate Passer
What would determine this for me the ball placement of throws. I don’t really focus on this when I watch QBs, so it’s hard for me to judge this. The guy that I did notice this for is Montana though. I remember seeing him throw balls where only the receiver could catch it or throwing it in a way to protect the receiver or allowing the receiver to run after the catch.
Best playmaker
As good as Favre is at making plays, I think Elway is the clear-cut winner in this. For one thing, you gotta think about the talent that surrounded both players. I think you could make the case that of the candidates Elway had the least amount of talent surrounding him, by far (at least for the first four Superbowls). With those teams, I want to go as far to say that the offense was basically Elway making plays: shotgun the ball to Elway, let him scramble to find someone open (no matter where they were on the field!). For me, he was the most dominant players of all-time–and he was the most valuable player of all-time.
Best Leader and Best Winner
I’m not sure how Don is differentiating these two categories, but I think I’d give Staubach the edge over Manning in the leadership department. In fact, that was the thing that I think puts him in this discussion.
To me, what Don is talking about with regard to Manning (controling the offense) has more to do with his knowledge. The guy is so prepared and knowlegeable that he has complete command of the offense. There’s really little substance I have for this, but it really seems to be the case when I watch him play.
I want to talk a little about what makes a QB great, what criteria you guys are using to make these picks in the next post.
I thought Don did a great job of describing some criteria/characteristics. I didn’t really feel like I had much to add to it.
But I still gotta give Bradshaw some love. I’ll freely admit that the Steel Curtain was the Steelers identity, but the Super Bowl I remember against Dallas was an offensive shootout. Neither defense could stop the other’s offense. And I just remember the feeling that there was no way Pittsburgh was going to be outscored that game. Then there was the next Super Bowl against the Rams where Bradshaw was tossing tds to Swann and Stallworth like it was nothing. Maybe it’s because I was young, but those images are seared into my memory.
Other searing memories involving quarterbacks, off the top of my head:
1. John Elway leading “The Drive” against Cleveland.
2. Any number of plays where Elway rolled out to one side and then threw to an open receiver on the other side of the field demonstrating (or showing off) his incredible arm strength.
3. Roger Staubach leading some remarkable comeback against the Redskins. When I was growing up it seemed like Dallas was on TV every week and the game was being called by Summerall and Madden. BAM!
4. Joe Montana in the Super Bowl against Cincinatti. You knew the 49ers were going to win.
5. Montana to Clark, aka “the catch”
6. Brett Favre throwing a long td in the super bowl against the Patriots on like the first play and then running off the field holding his helmet over his head.
7. Marino throwing like a million touchdowns that one year to Clayton or Duper.
8. Already mentioned Bradshaw in those last two super bowls.
9. Lawrence Taylor sacking Joe Theismann… sorry, I know this doesn’t pertain to this particular thread but man was that a sight I’d like to forget.
10. Manning and all his gyrations at the line followed by a perfect pass to Marvin Harrison.
11. Brady and “The Tuck.” How differently would things have turned out if that play had been called a fumble like it should have.
12. Kurt Warner to Isaac Bruce, followed by Steve McNair driving the Titans but getting stopped on the 1 yard line as time expired.
Bradshaw: By my “eye”, Bradshaw was great, probably the best long ball thrower (Reid thinks it’s Jeff (?) Blake). However, I do not think he’s in my top 5, maybe not even in the top ten. I bet he played with more Hall of Famers then any other quarterback: Greene, Harris, Stallworth, Blount, Swan, Lambert, Webster (I wouldn’t doubt if I missed a couple.).
Warner: Yes not a great ball, sometimes wobbles, not a strong arm, but a Marino like release, I thought.
Best Playmaker: I still think it’s Favre. He will throw balls into windows on the run. He had the gun slinger attitude.
Best Leader: Manning is a leader as in bus driver (control of the wheel), yes not as in El Capitan.
Reid what is your top quarterbacks? I know you think it’s Montana #1, what are the rest?
To me the three QB’s in my winner catagory: Montana, Staubach, and Young, I cannot remember them having bad games (especially the big games). Staubach lost to Bradshaw a lot, and Young lost to Aikman a lot, however I never felt they played bad in their losses. Oh and Montana never lost to anyone a lot…
Ooops forgot, great lists Marc, here’s one that stick out for me:
Favre throwing the pick in OT against the Giants, which led to the top of the head catch in the Super Bowl.
Bradshaw and the deep ball:
It’s hard to know where to place him. Let me think about my overall list more, and I’ll try to respond. As for deep passes, I would choose Bradshaw, but Jeff Blake could also throw “rainbow” long balls with impressive accuracy.
Warner and “pure passing”:
He looks like he’s throwing darts, which is not a criticism, but I’m ambivalent about classifying him as a “pure passer.” You don’t think Jeff George was a better pure passer–particularly in terms of talent and natural ability? Another guy that I might put in there is Drew Bledsoe. The guy was a slinger. Besides Marino, he’s the only other QB that I can think of who had a very good, if not great, rookie year.
Best playmaker
I think Elway could do everything you mentioned about Favre (maybe, just maybe, Favre could thread-the-needle a little better, but not by much). But Elway had better feet/legs than Favre–particularly in terms of scrambling. It’s Elway’s scrambling/running ability and arm strength that made him such a great playmaker…which reminds me, I might choose Fran Tarkenton over Favre in terms of a great playmaker (but that’s just based on highlights and the fact that he took them to four Superbowls–right?). There are different ways to define playmaker. One is the ability to make a play when it is needed, but the other–and the one I’m thinking of–is the ability to make something out of nothing. Elway made a career out of that and the Broncos success depended on him doing this on a regular basis.
Reid’s Best QBs
Before I answer that, let me discuss the different aspects of assessing the greatness of a QB:
I’ll try to post my specific picks later.
I’ve been putting this off long enough. To make a decision here are my picks, just off the top of my head:
1. Joe Montana Controlled the team; great play in big moments. (Btw, I feel like putting Johnny Unitas here or at #2, but I’ve only seem him on highlights.)
2. Peyton Manning A QB with the tools, but his mind is what set him a part from any other QB I can think of. One thing that hurts him is his play against the strong NE teams.
3. Roger Staubach Just seemed to have a lot of the attributes of a Montana.
4. John Elway Bad performance in the early superbowls is the most damaging to his all-time great status. Other than that, I could make a case that he was the greatest of all-time. In our lifetime, did anyone do more with less than him? The answer is no.
5. Dan Marino In terms of a QB’s main physical ability–throwing the ball–there was no one better, imo. Elway is up there, but I’d put Marino’s accuracy and judgment above Elway’s. If I put the championships (which are important; that’s why he’s at five), I feel like I could say he was the best QB ever.
6.Steve Young What’s the difference between Young and Montana? See, that’s why he should be on here.
7. Troy Aikman Aikman’s here mainly because I heard a conversation with Moose Johnston. Basically, Johnston said that Aikman accepted that he wouldn’t get a lot of attempts or touchdowns because he knew that wasn’t what made the team successful. I happen to believe that the Cowboy’s style of play is the best one–and that the Cowboy’s (at least offensively) of that time was one of the best teams of all-time. A lot of that has to do with the fact that Aikman was willing to throw less. Consider Elway, Marino, Favre and Manning. I really believe that had they been willing to throw the ball less–had they demanded their teams go after a great RB and build a great running back–they’re teams could have been more successful. In other words, there’s an irony to be a great passer: it’s difficult, if not impossibe to build a great running game. Aikman was a very good passer, if not great, but he at least partially allowed his team to be a great running team. (Yes, yes, all those other guys didn’t have Emmitt Smith–but it takes serious committment to running the ball, in addition to having a good RB.) Oh and Aikman has three Superbowl wins–in era with tough competition.
8.Terry Bradshaw Played well in big games, and he played in quite a few of them.
9.Tom Brady Definitely my type of QB. But I think Belichik deserves a lot of the credit for their team’s success (I can’t say the same about Walsh or Parcells–I couldn’t give the same level of credit anyway). I honestly don’t know if Brady would be great if he played in the 80s or early 90s. (He could be, but I’m not sure. Btw, if any of the previous QB mentioned were playing now, I think they might be better, at least statistically, when they played.)
10. Jeff Hostetler One of my all-time favorite QBs. No, I don’t think he deserves to be on this list, but I think he was fantastic.
Where’s John Friesz??
Right above Warren Moon.
Btw, did you put him on your list? I thought he was your man?
Re: John Friesz
Look I hope you don’t think I really think he’s one of the best QBs. He just really impressed in his rookie year at San Diego. You know who he reminds me of though? Brady. To me, I could see him being successful if he played in the league today–especially if he played with NE.
Friesz reminded me most of a poor-man’s Dave Krieg. Good in the pocket, seemingly unflappable, high-percentage, low-error, nothing outstanding kind of guy.
No, I’m definitely kidding about Friesz. I don’t remember him playing at all so I have no comment to make on his except bringing him up incessantly.
Was the placement of Manning at #2 based somewhat on a presumption that the Colts would beat the Saints in the Super Bowl? When you now consider that Manning’s career playoff record is 7-7 and that his Super Bowl record is 1-1 with a rather significant interception that sealed the loss yesterday, does he still deserve a top 2 rating?
I found this and thought I’d pass along as food for thought.
Montana, playoffs: 16-7
Brady, playoffs: 14-4
Elway, playoffs: 14-8
Favre, playoffs: 13-11
Warner, playoffs: 9-4
Manning, playoffs: 9-9
Roethlisberger, playoffs: 8-2
I cannot put Brady below Young, Aikman, or Bradshaw. I even question whether he should be below Manning being they play in the same era and Brady leads 3 to 1 in the Super Bowl title count.
SI has an article, Another Disappointment for Manning, that surprised me. The information in that article–
and the drive that lead to the interception really causes me to rethink my position, and I do this with no joy. In terms of ability (his mind), I’d put him up there with QBs like Marino and Elway–QBs that could carry their teams.
But as I mentioned earlier, being one of the best of all-time depends on great play in the most important moments and biggest games. Throwing interceptions or playing poorly in these big moments is very significant.
RE: Records and Superbowl victories
I think you have to be careful about using these statistics to measure the greatness of a QB. There are other components of the team that are obviously important and the quality of opponents and what they do also matters (because it’s sometimes beyond the control of the QB–i.e. how an opposing offense performs.) What you have to ask is connection between those wins (and losses) to the QB’s performance. Obviously, if the QB’s performance had a lot to do with a win or a losses than that should be factored in. Sometimes a QB can play well or if they don’t play well, it may not be primarily his fault. It’s also true that a QB may not play so well, but the team eventually wins (Elway’s winning superbowl’s weren’t stellar performances.).
But if playoff victories are such a big criterion by itself, Aikman should probably be in the top five–definitely over Young, Marino and Elway and at least tied with Brady. Bradshaw should be in the top three. Come to think of it, we better also mention, my man, Jim Plunkett somewhere in there.
http://youbeenblinded.com/bill-parcells-11-quarterback-commandments/584
Here’s Bill Parcell’s 11 QB Commandments. Maybe this should be the criteria for the greatest of all time.
Reid, so if Manning is dropping on your list, what spot is he dropping to.
I’m just throwing in the playoff records as something more to consider. I didn’t intend for it to become the defining stat or anything. I was just surprised that Manning’s playoff record isn’t all that great and thought I would point it out. I guess I was a little surprised that Reid had him at number 2.
Don, I have no idea! My list is screwed up now…actually, when I think about it seriously, I’m not very confident in the list at all. I can barely remember Staubach and Bradshaw. I also a lot of games in the past couple of years (including playoffs).
I like Parcell’s eleven rules, but not to use to judge the all-time greatest QBs. His philosophy is one where the QB puts his team in positions to win–versus winning games for you–and definitely not losing games for your team. By these rules, you could make a case for Trent Dilfer.
There are a couple of criteria that I think are important–but they also make things more complicated:
1. The QB’s overall ability to complete passes, make plays and not do stupid things. QBs like Marino, and Manning are phenomenal in this. (Favre would be in this group, too, if he wasn’t so reckless);
2. The QB’s ability to play great in tough circumstances and big games;
3. The QB was at the heart of the team–the primary reason for their success.
These three qualities seem to be really important, but then what do you do with a QB that has phenomenal ability, but didn’t have enough opportunities in the playoffs (eg. Marino)? Or what if they didn’t always play great in the playoffs (eg. Manning)?
On the other hand, what if you have players whose teams have done well in the playoffs/superbowls, but weren’t the central focus of the team or had tremendous stats (eg. Aikman and Bradshaw)?
I’m not sure how to answer these questions, but I’m just throwing them out there.
I think I have to move Brady up higher–but I’m really not comfortable doing that. Is Brady really better than Aikman, Young or Marino? I mean, I guess if you go by Superbowls, you’d say yes.
To bad, there wasn’t a way to watch old game film.
Mitchell,
Re: Friesz and Dave Krieg
Krieg was more mobile and creative. (Did he ever get to play in the West Coast offense? To me, he seems like the type of QB that would do well in that offense.) I bet he’d do well if he were playing now. The QB that comes to mind is Matt Hasselbeck–good feet in the pocket and ability to turn broken plays into positive ones.